1-on-1: Manny gets caught
Posted by Dave at Friday, May 08, 2009 1:10 PM 
Categories: Red Sox,National sports scene,Wednesday 1-on-1
Categories: Red Sox,National sports scene,Wednesday 1-on-1
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THIS WEEK'S TOPIC Examining the fallout of Manny Ramirez's suspension. |
Dave: today is a day i should be chiding you about the bulls' long summer ... but, instead, i am sad
Donovan: the Bulls have honor, at least
Dave: ouch
Dave: you're not helping
Donovan: sorry
Donovan: now I know you're not representative of the average Red Sox fan (which is why we're friends, in part), but this is a lesson in why you don't take too much joy in the downfall of others
Dave: i agree with that, wholeheartedly
Dave: and i don't understand these sox fans (of which there are many) who now take joy in manny's downfall
Dave: because, newsflash, the circumstances of this downfall probably didn't start on august 1, 2008
Donovan: yeah, I noticed that too on the boston.com message board, which was one of the first places I went yesterday
Donovan: does anyone really think he just started juicing when he went to LA?
Dave: i don't think so; although that's the only way i could see a sox fan taking joy in this
Dave: i think it started before the 2008 season
Dave: manny comes back looking for a contract, all philosophical after reading "the secret", scott boras as his agent, whispers about his fall from the elite hitters in the game...
Donovan: just before the 2008 season, or at some point before that?
Dave: i think it was the winter of 07-08
Dave: purely a guess, obviously
Donovan: right
Dave: but in 07 he goes down to .296, 20 and 88
Dave: next year he comes back looking for big money, and hits .332 with 37 and 121
Donovan: yeah, that could just be contract year motivation
Dave: could be
Donovan: and hitting NL pitching for 2 months
Dave: he still had a .926 ops in the AL last year
Dave: i think he was afraid he'd reached the end of the line
Dave: and there would be no more money, no big deal
Donovan: see, that's interesting, because this sort of erases that image of him as an oblivious man-child who lives in the Green Monster and hits home runs because it makes people happy
Donovan: assuming you don't believe his story about the sinister doctor, which we've heard a thousand times before
Donovan: but what you're describing is a pretty calculating move
Dave: as i wrote, i really want him to trot out this doctor, who'll tell us it was all a misunderstanding, and he'll be cleared ... but, let's be real. the 99 on his back represents the percent of chance that ain't happening
Dave: so, yes
Dave: i believe this was a calculated ploy
Dave: and, just like i don't think it's a coincidence that manny figured out how to get himself out of boston once he had the coaxing of boras, i don't think he came up with this plan entirely on his own, either
Donovan: and I've said before, in this environment, if you take anything at all without checking with a team doctor to see if it's legal, you deserve to be suspended for being so dumb
Dave: agreed
Donovan: so does this taint the Red Sox world series titles?
Dave: absolutely not
Dave: it taints individual numbers, but it's clear now that roids were rampant
Dave: so they probably beat teams with as many, or more, guys who were juicing than they had on their own team
Dave: the playing field was illegal, but it was even
Donovan: I actually somewhat agree with that "illegal but level" argument, which I noticed had suddenly become a popular one in the Globe's comments
Donovan: I must have missed those sentiments when the A-Rod story broke
Donovan: The Red Sox were still the better team those years, just as A-Rod was always a better player than everyone else
Donovan: it's hard to figure where to put a guy like Bonds in there though
Dave: bonds was always great
Donovan: because I think he benefited from steroids more than A-Rod and Manny
Dave: agreed
Dave: because his game changed
Dave: manny was 165 rbis in 1999
Donovan: right, Bonds was a 35-35, 40-40 guy before that and still an all-time talent, but he became strictly an HR guy
Dave: as far as the tainted titles, i can't get past the idea that they lost in 03 because giambi hit 2 hrs in game 7
Donovan: imagine how Cardinals fans feel about Manny winning World Series MVP
Dave: true, but you can go back quite a few years now and make that same case
Dave: luis gonzalez in 01
Dave: troy glaus in 02
Dave: pudge in 03
Dave: the last three years prior to testing...
Donovan: right
Donovan: that's why I'm saying, lay off Giambi
Dave: my point was that there were juiced guys on every team
Dave: plus, i dont think manny was juicing then
Dave: when do you think he started?
Donovan: I really don't know enough to guess
Donovan: 2002? 2003?
Dave: it's a possibility
Dave: but he became less imposing every year; that's why i think it's a fairly recent development
Donovan: I definitely don't think he did in Cleveland, but Boston tends to be more forgiving of cheaters (Rajon Rondo)
Dave: you're right; rondo has played so good it should be illegal
Donovan: ha
Donovan: anyway
Dave: let me ask you this: do i have a right to be a litte sad?
Donovan: sure, of course
Dave: were you sad when slammin sammy's name came up?
Dave: (albeit without a test)
Donovan: I was sad that it came up without any shred of evidence
Donovan: and there still isn't any
Donovan: and now it just makes me angry
Dave: i don't know, i just feel somewhat guilty for being surprised and disappointed
Dave: like i'm naive
Donovan: yeah, you never think it's going to happen to your guy
Donovan: I'm surprised about Manny, really. In a way I wasn't about A-Rod
Dave: i was pretty stunned by both
Dave: and if the triumvirate is completed by mr. pujols, i will lose all or any remaining faith in the integrity of baseball from 1998-2006
Dave: no league leader will be beyond suspicion
Dave: no pitcher, no hitter, no closer ... nobody
Donovan: right
Donovan: which, ironically, means everybody goes back to being judged on their natural abilities
Dave: right
Dave: which is good
Dave: strangely, the only guy who comes out looking somewhat good in this situation is bud selig
Donovan: which shows you how far we've fallen
Donovan: although I disagree with that
Dave: yes, another star of his era has been tainted ... but i think this shows that a) they catch people in this program; and b) he's not afraid to punish the big names
Dave: here's the most popular guy, in the second biggest media market, on the best team, the day after setting a feel-good record ... and he gets popped
Donovan: he waited far too long to do anything about it, though
Donovan: all the outrage came from the bottom up and forced him to act, so he loses some of the moral high ground
Dave: certainly bud is culpable in the big picture, but for the manny case in particular, bud looks good i think
Dave: in general bud has no high ground
Donovan: ha, yeah, it was good for him to just ban him 50 games, immediately
Donovan: that did surprise me, none of this "we're investigating, blah blah blah"
Dave: definitely
Dave: it puts some muscle behind the big talk he's spewed for the last few years
Donovan: now I eagerly await Selena Roberts' hit-job book on Manny
Dave: haha
Dave: that would be something
Dave: i have the "becoming manny" book, if you want to borrow it
Donovan: if I'm A-Rod, I'm sleeping in a Manny jersey tonight
Dave: yessir
Dave: and the timing of this just furthers my a-rod conspiracy theory
Donovan: and if I'm one David Ortiz, I'm very worried
Dave: i still think a-rod was secretly suspended
Dave: told to sit out until tonight; the commish did its part by taking the spotlight off him with the manny thing; and now it's all smoothly back to normal
Donovan: like MJ?
Dave: very much like MJ
Donovan: see, with MJ they had to hide it because he was the most popular guy in the world
Donovan: A-Rod is not
Donovan: Selig would have gotten major props for suspending A-Rod publicly
Dave: but he couldn't, based on the supposed anonymity of the test; a-rod would've won a legal fight
Dave: this was an under the table deal
Dave: had to be hush-hush
Donovan: man, and I thought my conspiracy theories were wacky
Dave: i really believe in this one
Dave: i would've been even more convinced if he magically sat 50 games with the hip thing
Donovan: hey, I believe that the Patriots winning the Super Bowl after 9/11 was orchestrated by the league, too
Dave: he's back a bit sooner than i thought
Donovan: haha, that would have been amazing
Dave: even bud's not that dumb, though
Dave: anyway, let's wrap this up with the ultimate question in all of this:
Dave: manny ramirez — hall of famer?
Donovan: yeah
Donovan: A-Rod, yeah. Bonds, yeah. Sosa, yeah. McGwire, no.
Donovan: Schilling, no.
Dave: (one of these things is not like the other...)
Donovan: see, we could have a whole other chat on why procedures like schilling's ankle or tommy john surgery are perfectly okay, and steroids aren't
Dave: absolutely, which is part of why i would vote yes to all six guys you mentioned
Dave: we have to look at guys in context
Dave: when they played, who they played against, what the circumstances were in their era
Dave: all these guys played in the steroid era
Dave: and they were the best of their era
Donovan: right
Dave: sorry if the era skewed the numbers, but the numbers are still there
Donovan: just like you can't penalize ruth for not hitting off Satchel Page
Dave: right
Donovan: you'll enjoy this
Donovan: http://www.theonion.com/content/infograph/manny_ramirez?utm_source=a-section
Donovan: but yeah, some guys you just know are talented either way, like Manny
Dave: it's unfortunate that somebody who had hall of fame potential in 1942, but blew out his arm after one season and never returned because the medicine wasn't great, but ... that's the era he played in
Donovan: exactly
Donovan: the game is always changing
Dave: exactly
Donovan: hopefully for the better now
Dave: amenn
Dave: with two Ns, even
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